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"You are what you eat. To the Batcave Robin."
Do animals have rights? Is vegetarianism just a western luxury because of food choice not found in the Third world? How deep are your principles … would you compromise them to survive, or is this what real convenience food is?
Just a quickie as always I am offering my footnote first as I have always done things arse upwards so why spoil the habits of a lifetime. I believe you have had the very last word on this subject. I think your ideology of us all being innocent bystanders to the hurly burly conundrum of human and animal existence a wonderful acceptance of our 'happening' to be here on this planet. I believe that we are agreement on the fact that life is uncertain and only death is. I agree with you that we have responsibilities to the 'interests' of animals because they 'suffer' for mankind just as much as, sadly, we show inhumanity to our own 'kind'. I agree we struggle to reconcile our own existence, let alone our relationship with animals. I agree with you when you say that I am probably patronising your notions (and very convincing notions at that ) while excusing my actions by argument to defend what I believe is inherent natural urges. The truth is your whole nub of argument is sensitive and even logical to a point. I actually agree with the general whole thrust of this exhaustive issue. That it may be 'immoral' to eat other species. Notice I agree that you 'may' be right. I feel you have deftly held your own with this one. This is because you have already made up your mind that to eat animals is wrong.
I do not know how this will affect me, but I am a 'forward thinker' and will take what you say on board and if convinced in my heart I will act on it.
I certainly think that it is only fair that kids from an early age should not have the wholesale slaughter of animals for human consumption hidden. That they see every procedure from the little lamb to the chop on the plate. I don't want to traumatise or use shock tactics to influence my child but make it an experience that is informational and not born from 'ignorance' but I take your point.
This is by definition a paradox as you put it, because if I am going to implement the above with Beth, what I am actually doing is asking her to take my lead. Yet, I am still eating meat! Who am I trying to convince? Interesting, eh? It may be strangely curious that I want to take part in this voyeurism to examine my own motives!! I hope I am not using my own daughter in some macabre way to satisfy my query and adopt her as an emotional scapegoat for my own 'pain'.
I agree with your assumption that children are our teachers through their ability to recognise right form wrong without adults complicating things. I honestly agree with you that one day it will be a public and criminal offence to eat animals. I agree that it is a personal issue on morality. This you made clear to me. I just think that like any other 'code' or maxim they should be universal not just up to an individual but en masse. This is unlikely so as you say we should respond individually i.e. All humans may obey on unilateral laws but not on who decides what they put in their own mouths!
This is the pivotal problem for me.
I cannot call it a matter of morality when in certain circumstances I need not stand by such a discipline. If it is purely a choice of behaviour that is not all pervading, or a reflective stance on habit as it were, this is where I struggle. It would have to be 'all or nothing'. Let me illustrate. If I decided to stay in Ely to become a vegetarian out of self-discipline and then in a moment of impetuous desire went to live in Yukon in Alaska and live as a bear trapper or similarly if I moved to live in Nuuk in Greenland to fish for cod or shrimp on a trans-migratory whim, or simply on cultural and geographic grounds, are you saying it might be acceptable for me to compromise this morality.
This is where I struggle.
I think if you can send a canary down a coalmine to potentially save miners lives then we should be able to test certain animals to cure our own illnesses. Please understand that I hasten to add that these scenarios should be more regulated and legislated for, than in the past. Most of our 'use' of animals is gratuitous. For instance I believe that the mighty fast food chains should be subdued and 'run' by the government. As for farms and animal research, the same jurisdiction of the authorities should apply. No human should be allowed to create huge enterprise from animal killing. Maybe it would be better if animal meat were rationed like in the last two wars. This is romantic and impractical, however in the perfect world I would welcome it. However, it is no less improbable that if we would all become vegetarians it may upset other natural balances.
Do you agree that if we have to cull then why not use all of the animal? This is difficult. Who decides what dies first? Is animal life as precious as our own? If we spare animals, we have to know why? If we kill animals, we have to know why? If we are to believe in 'live and let live' then if some have to die, who decides? Like smoking in public it may be that soon eating meat may offend non-meat eaters and that public consumption be outlawed that far, but conversely any internal force to suppress meat sale would just create a black market and then even encourage further abuses of our animal kingdom.
If this were a courtroom drama I would have to be convinced 'beyond any reasonable doubt' that eating meat is morally wrong. I know you dismiss the Bibles admonition or any other scriptural based 'authority' but I would guess that the majority of the world population of so-called Christians who eat meat and otherwise law abide would not consider themselves as doing an immoral thing by eating meat at Christmas or Thanksgiving. You do not accept that this book is the Word of god and that God granted mankind with the use of the earth's other beasts for food. (I agree with you on that score but for different reasons!) Are the majority of Christendom wrong and their efforts to please God wasted because they are committing a moral wrongdoing, by fish on Friday? It is interesting that the Hebrew community throughout time and until now is 'selective' in it's consumption of animals and provides a list of over twenty varieties of animals that were deemed 'unfit' to eat, namely two-toed, cloved footed or/and reptilian beasts. This points to some decorum and a 'respect' of some animals no matter how crude or unsubstantiated.
The paradox you mention is an 'eye-opener' and I am glad that you shared it with me. I agree that all you have summarised is very much 'turned my ideas and notions on their head'. Am I right in assuming that if we act out of 'uncertainty' that whatever we try to achieve is done out of ignorance but that we must react in a positive way although we do not really know why? That sure is paradoxical! I have a hunch that this may spark another debate on what we do and why we do it? It has made me visualise many concepts.
I actually think you may be onto something.
It is as if we actually exist and lead opposite but parallel existences. (Sound familiar?) One that is sublime and one that is also not certain or chaotic.
What is paradoxical is our own contrary behaviour. You said on the phone that whatever I chose to do on the basis of this 'info' it would benefit me. I can almost see the objective but not quite. I have a good feeling about it though.
I am depressed with our own contrary behaviour. We have the highway code and know that it would be stupid to flout those laws. Yet, it is still ok to cruelly murder foxes? The RSPCA would castigate me for drowning a litter of kittens down the loo but animals are bred to race against each other quite legally for profit until they are no longer competitive or lucrative and then destroyed by vets consent!
I understood how to relate behaviour to knowledge but I cannot seem to equate 'awareness' of animals plight to our actions out of ignorance. Your paradox is one of great integrity and I just wish I had the same grasp of it as you. Please help me wrap my head around this one. I certainly feel like the real ignorant one here.
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